ICU – “I SEE YOU” PODCAST
Art Therapy for Vestibular Disorders
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We’ve all messed around with art at some point in our lives and with perfectionists at bay, it can be playful, relaxing and revitalizing. But how often do we pick up a paintbrush because it can also be medicine? In this episode of the ICU – “I See You” podcast we explore how art (in all its forms) can be a useful and powerful tool for those of us living with vestibular disorders, and how you can bring more of this creative act into your life… even if you’re a novice!
This podcast is a co-production of the Vestibular Disorders Association (VeDA) and Unfixed Media.
ABOUT THE GUESTS
Nicolle Cure is a Colombian-American artist living and working in Miami, Florida. Her abstract paintings explore the relationship between sound and daily life, inspired by her sudden unilateral hearing loss in 2017 and the subsequent diagnosis of Ménière’s disease—a vestibular health condition affecting her hearing and balance. Since then, Nicolle has shifted her creative approach and style to illustrate her experience with hearing loss through color and movement. She uses mixed-media techniques, incorporating soft washes and mark-making, to create fluid, abstract, energetic, yet calming paintings. Beyond her art practice, Nicolle is passionate about helping others and raising awareness for causes dear to her heart. In the last seven years, she has partnered with the Hearing Health Foundation and VeDA, donating her time and art to support their fundraising initiatives. You can see Nicolles art at nicollecure.com
Jade Chung is a Professional Art Therapist, Integrative Trauma Coach, and Intuitive Healer. Currently based in Vancouver, British Columbia, she works with women who are looking to heal and expand in powerful and creative ways, mind, body, and soul. She is trained in a diversity of modalities that release trauma, rewire the brain, and awaken the soul so that her clients can shift into a life of alignment, authenticity, and embodiment. She is registered with the Canadian Association of Art Therapists and has advanced certifications in integrative trauma work and energy medicine. Learn more about Jade’s art and practice at yourpiece.art/about
Hosts:
Cynthia Ryan, Executive Director of the Vestibular Disorders Association (VeDA) vestibular.org
Kimberly Warner, Founder and Director of Unfixed Media unfixedmedia.com
This podcast is a co-production of the Vestibular Disorders Association (VeDA) and Unfixed Media
TRANSCRIPT
VeDA uses otter.ai to create machine-generated transcripts. This transcript may contain errors.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Welcome to the ICU Podcast where we explore the vestibular experience through conversations between patients and the health professionals who care for them.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
During this podcast, we invite patients to share their stories and healthcare professionals to ask questions, so they are equipped to better care for and truly see the invisible challenges faced by their patients. I’m Kimberly Warner. And
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
I’m Cynthia Ryan. And we are your hosts on this journey of discovery.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Welcome, everyone, to the ICU podcast. We are so happy to have you here today. This is gonna be kind of a while we’ll see where it goes. But I’m thinking it’s gonna be a fun lighthearted conversation. But who knows, you never know what to expect. Today we’re going to be talking about art therapy and vestibular disorders. We’ve all messed around with art at some point in our lives. And with perfectionist at bay it can be playful, relaxing, revitalizing. But how often do we pick up a paintbrush because it also can be medicine. Personally, for me when I was in the absolute tears of MdDS I picked up needle sculpting with wool and it became a lifeline for me. And I know I’m not alone when I say that are can really soothe frayed nerves give us a sense of purpose, and also help the quieter subconscious self within have a voice. So in today’s podcast, we’re going to explore how art in all of its forms can be a useful and powerful tool for those of us living with the stimulator disorders, and how you can bring more of this creative act into your life. Even if you’re novice so don’t worry, don’t feel like Oh, I’m not creative. This is for everyone. We have two incredible guests with us. Nicole here, who we’re all very familiar with, I’m sure is Colombian American artists living and working in Miami, Florida. Her abstract paintings explore the relationship between sound and daily life. Inspired by her sudden unilateral hearing loss in 2017 and the subsequent diagnosis of maneras disease. Since then, Nicole has shifted her creative approach and style to illustrate her experience with hearing loss through color and movement. She uses mixed media techniques incorporating soft washes and mark making to create fluid abstract energetic yet calming paintings and they are very calming like I just they feel like Bad’s to me when I look at them. Beyond her art practice, Nicole is passionate about helping others and raising awareness for causes near and dear to her heart. In the last seven years, she has partnered with the Hearing Health Foundation, and of course, Vestibular Disorders Association, donating her time and art to support their fundraising initiatives. Welcome the Kol we’re so happy to have you. Thank
Nicolle Cure
you so much for having me. I am so excited to see you again and to talk to our other very important guest. So thank you.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Yeah, yay. Well, I want to, I want to introduce our other very important guest, Jay Chung, who is a professional art therapist, an integrative trauma Coach and an intuitive healer. Currently, Jade is based in Vancouver, British Columbia, where she works with women who are looking to heal and expand in powerful and creative ways. Body, mind and soul. She’s trained in a diversity of modalities that release trauma, rewire the brain and awaken the soul so that her clients can shift into a life of alignment, authenticity and embodiment. She’s registered with the Canadian Association of art therapists and has advanced certifications in integrative trauma work and energy medicine, which sounds like one of the most interesting jobs I can imagine Jade, welcome. It’s so nice to have you.
Jade Chung
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to connect with the community here. And yeah, to talk about art, and also if energy stuff comes into the mix. happy to chat about that, too. I
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
love that you work with women too. Specifically, I just I you know, I mean, yes, men are great, too. But I just I love that your practice focuses on women because man we’ve been left out for millennia. So I
Jade Chung
just feel like there is so much power and so much potential in I mean, obviously all humans, all individuals, but in women so much of it is so untapped because we do feel in many ways like constrained by different things, societal things, systemic things. And so, yeah, I really dedicate my work to just like empowering Are women and their souls to have a voice to have expression?
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Well, you have a great audience here because a lot of I mean, we have obviously male vestibular patients too. But do you have a percentage Cynthia, how many women per ton there is that
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
there’s definitely more women in our community specifically, you know, which could be for a number of reasons. And there are some vestibular disorders that they do their statistics that women are, are more affected. But, yeah, I just I want to put a call out there, welcome to the men here also, because everyone can be creative. And art is an amazing way to tap into that I mean, I have that I have some, I am not a creative person by nature. I am a left brained person, I am very, you know, about organization and I and, you know, making sure things are getting done efficiently. But I have used art as a way to break out of that to release my mind from that overly ordered focus, and to try to open myself up to creativity. And I’ve also had some experience with using art in to deal with trauma, which I’ll talk about later on. But, but let’s go ahead and let’s get started with you guys.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Yeah, Nicole, you actually are an artist and you were before you had your vestibular diagnosis. Let’s just give some people a little bit of background on your brief. A little. I know it’s a long journey, but a brief version of your vestibular journey and how your art practice specifically was was affected by your diagnosis.
Nicolle Cure
Of course I’m happy to share I was actually I was born in RDS I you know, my my mom and dad, I come from a creative background to you know, fashion designer architect painters around me. So that’s fantastic. I’d say I had a beautiful childhood I grew up amongst all the artsy things blueprints, magazines, fashion magazines, color textile. So I I’ve been an artist no matter what like it’s that’s in my in my blood. It did change a lot. Once I experienced my sudden hearing loss. I consider myself more of a surrealist artists, I would paint a lot of very detailed paintings. I love Salvador Dali, very, you know, very unique artists. I really love his work, the infrequency of the little details on the story. So I used to for a long time paint intricate art with a lot of very small details. When I got diagnosed, when I had sudden hearing loss, I had to stop painting because I couldn’t I couldn’t focus, I couldn’t draw, I couldn’t paint, I was dizzy all the time. I was bedridden, I just basically left my bed to to eat something and didn’t go to the bathroom that said Go back to bed that was you know, it was even hard to shower, it was harder to to even walk to the kitchen for a glass of water. So let alone trying to set up my studio and paint. So long story short, I started exploring abstract work in a way of replicating sound and sound waves. Because every time I would go to the audiologist, I would see in the screen the sound waves as they were testing me and the little patterns. And that kind of opened up another world for me. And first I did it for myself, I first created an abstract piece. And I posted it because I didn’t have a way to show the world what was going on with me. So I remember I was on Instagram and I suddenly changed like what I was posting. And I just went like public with it. And I said, here’s what I’m going through. I don’t know how to fix this. I don’t even know how I’m feeling. And this is what I painted because of that. And I don’t even know where this journey is gonna take me. And I remember looking for hashtags of people with sudden hearing loss and similar disorders as I was learning and then all these people started to like, DM me and talk about the stories and I’m like, oh my god, first I’m not alone. Like this is not like a crazy thing that’s happening to me. Because I thought I was going crazy. I had anxiety. And then it’s like there is a whole world out there. And I found Vida and I started reading about the stories and the glossary like to understand each term. So my art started shifting because I wanted to tell my story and I wanted to learn from other people. So I always say that I’ve been an artist, but it wasn’t until my hearing loss that I discovered my true passion and my real journey in the arts. So yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
That’s such an amazing story. Nicole, I’ve heard It doesn’t times, but I love hearing it every time.
Nicolle Cure
Thank you. Yeah, it’s changed me, it’s changed me because I never knew what I really painted or created, I thought it was just more like, like an automatic thing. Like, yes, I’ve been an artist I’ve painted all my life I’ve drawn, but now it’s like a journal a way of communicating, when I don’t have any words, I just talk about the work and let the work kind of speak for itself. And so many people also, like look at it and tell me other things that they see there. So it’s interesting to have that conversation where it’s not only about my story, but they see themselves reflected in those sound waves. And they find themselves like, Oh, I feel like this whitespace that you have in your art is the white noise that we hear when we have tinnitus. Or and that’s the intention, I do a lot of whitespace around my work to enhance encapsulate the lots of sound and, and ups and downs of high frequencies and low frequencies. So a lot of my work, you will see, like a focal point, where is the sound, and then you see like whitespace around that surrounding like soothing that. And because I use that to soothe my own tinnitus. So it’s interesting, like, as I learned how I’ve been shifting my perspective, towards, you know, creating, painting and illustrating through my work.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Wow. So, Jake, I wanted to ask you how you became an art therapist, but let’s, could you start with what is art therapy? You know, what, what? How do you use art as therapy? And then, you know, do you have like a personal anecdote of, of? Why that how that moved you and why you went in that direction, professionally? Yeah,
Jade Chung
I mean, there’s so many pieces to this. But art therapy, as a general definition is really just psychotherapy, with art at the heart of it. And so, what we really do in our therapy is in addition, right to the language that we all speak, verbally communicating through like linear language, like kind of Nicole touched on there is so much of our experience, emotional experience, our mental experience, our spiritual experience, that cannot be put into words, there is just there are just no way there is just no way to like encapsulate the depth of it. And so art, through color, through form, through shape through texture, through storytelling as well, is just another language that we can express ourselves through and also that other people can understand us and communicate with us through. So it just essentially gives us another channel for therapy to work. And it’s just it’s so powerful. I have a story that I don’t know art has really also been like a big part of my life. Nicole, it’s actually quite it’s crazy to hear your story because my mom is a fashion designer and my dad is an architect. There’s some synchronicity there I don’t even know.
Wow, interesting. So cool. Kismet.
Jade Chung
Yeah, so I pretty much grew up around art as well and creativity. But for me, I throughout my life, I always felt like I needed to fit into more of society’s structures. And so I was actually a, I was actually a commercial art sales dealer, before I became an art therapist. So I was always really interested in art, but I didn’t feel like I could go into. I don’t know, I didn’t feel like I had the capacity to go into the humaneness of it, if that makes sense. And so it was really during the beginning of COVID When my career because of the economy kinda just went into flames. And I had to really like look into myself and look at how I respond, how I was responding to the world, what was going on inside of me. And so it was then that I kind of went back into a deep art practice. Before that, I think I’d kind of dropped out of it. It was something that was a big part of my childhood and then you know, a cut as you go into adulthood, a lot of those like inner child explorative activities that we used to love, we kind of throw them to the wayside. So I started really just deepening into art again and also poetry. And it brought me back to life quite simply and Through my work with clients now, I really also see how having that additional channel of expression and communication can can open up so much for a person. And so, yeah, I love how
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
you say that about that having a another channel of communication because I think whether or not you have an illness, I think sometimes certain people, I’ll speak for myself, but I always felt like the verbal, I’m not as verbal as I am visual and sensor real. And so sometimes, especially with overwhelming emotions, it’s really hard for me to find the perfect way to express what I’m feeling. And so I love how you said that Jade, about it being another way of communicating and Nicole, you’ve been doing that as well. And, like he’s talked about this whitespace around the tinnitus and you know, you’re creating that for other for the your audience, but you’re also creating it for yourself, the need for it. And so, actually, that leads me into thinking because you told us a little bit about how your art has changed after your diagnosis. Did you have to adapt your techniques to because you know, you’ve been dizzy? You you hear things differently. So how did your techniques change?
Nicolle Cure
Yes, 100%, I used to paint on a knee. So now I paint on the floor. And I clicked on a table by weave through my whole search took first two, three years of my diagnose and sudden hearing loss, I could not stand well, feeling like I would, I would blink and lose my balance. Like I still struggle with that. And if I close my eyes, if I have to do yoga and close my eyes, I tend to to fall to through my right side, which is the problem side. So I started painting on the floor because I was I paint fluid abstract, it’s more like that technique is a lot of water, a lot of flowing inks, acrylic inks on on water and different mediums to spread it kind of like a watercolor, but on large pieces or on canvas or wood panels. And being on the floor grounds me obviously, but also allows me to, I don’t know, see the Canvas in a different way. Balance and take breaks and it just calls me on balances maybe for us to be more like a faster approach. Now I take my time with with that I use clay spatula to push the water. And that is really relaxing. Like it’s really I post a lot of videos of that. And honestly, that’s how I do people love those videos is I go oh my god, I’m gonna fall asleep. I’m like, yeah, it does the same for me like it, I tend to stress a lot, I don’t manage stress very well. And when I’m in the studio, and I’m doing those repetitive movements, I forget about my tinnitus I forget about the ringing and the custom buzzing like it’s like I get lost in the water in pushing the water. And like David was saying, like the shapes the textures, like I paint with my hands too. Of course I use brushes and other things. But like I get really in there I get in the water, I touch the canvas and it’s very sensorial. It makes me relaxed. It makes me feel grounded to not only the floor, but the material. But it’s you look at my art before, I still love surrealism. And I little by little, I’m incorporating some marks into the abstract work that it’s coming back. But I’m in love with abstract because it allows me to, to just send a different message every time and to to play more with the material rather than just standing with one brush in front of a canvas. So there’s so much sensory like, it’s funny because I experienced sudden sensory neural hearing loss. I feel like there’s a lot of sense or real things that go into my art now. And if I didn’t have probably I wouldn’t have gone into abstract if this wouldn’t have happened to me. So it’s like a blessing in disguise that I discovered another passion another genre, another type of art form. So yeah, I’m really changed. I
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
can totally relate to you saying that it gets you out of your head. That’s that’s what it does. For me. That’s, you know, what I like I said, I’m, I’m not a very creative person and I went into fluid art to get to try to get myself out of my head. And, and, and I think that also you know, you were talking about you know, using art Jade using art as a method of communication. I think it also is a way to communicate with our subconscious. What things that we are not consciously aware Have if we open ourselves up to it. So my experience with art therapy was, after a car accident, I was in a serious car accident. And I was seeing a psychotherapist. And she saw that I, that I do art that I do my own fluid art and she says, I want you to paint your I was having a lot of pain from the whiplash. She said I want you to paint your pain. And I went into that, you know, I went into a it’s all about color, you know? So I went into it thinking, Okay, what colors am I going to use? And what does my pain look like? I used a lot of read. And I hated what I came up with, not because it was bad art, I mean, artists objective, but I hated the feel of it. Because it was my pain. You know, I was bringing my pain out on on the canvas. And so I decided, You know what, I don’t want this pain anymore. I want growth, I want to know what’s going to come out. Where I’m going to be when I come out of, of this experience, you know how I’ll feel when I get better. So I painted over the pain painting on the same canvas. And it turned out completely different. And it’s, it’s, it’s the painting I’ve gotten the most positive compliments about. So it was it was tapping into my subconscious about why why do i Why am I holding on to this pain? And what can I do with it? Can you can you maybe explain to us a little bit what is happening in our brains and our autonomic nervous system when we practice art? And why does it have the potential to be so therapeutic?
Jade Chung
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I’m just like sitting with your story. I’m also saying with Nicole’s experience with like how you make art and it’s just it’s so it’s always just so powerful and beautiful to witness and like hear how others have moved through their pain or their experience through such a process, just sitting with that. But your question, your question about the subconscious, autonomic nervous system. So I think that what both of you have spoken to has been the process of art being a space or like, when we use our when we have a tool in our hands, when we have that texture, and we have that color in front of us when we have that anchor. It allows us to first ground and kind of come into a place where we can be focused, and be in flow with something, right as opposed to usually, if we’re kind of in our sympathetic nervous system, if we’re going through our day to day life, we are, you know, our brains are up here, just kind of floating around, we’re thinking and thinking and thinking. We’re not fully grounded, we’re not in our what we call our parasympathetic nervous system. And so art, being in process allows you to essentially activate your parasympathetic. Especially if you are working more in like process art, which both of you have described really tuning in to the process of what you’re doing, as opposed to, as opposed to like, let’s say, Nicole, you were mentioning how you used to do a lot of like realistic hyper realistic surrealist art, that can often be like in your mind, it can be very interpretive. But when we can do a lot of when we can get into the mindful art making that modality of it, there is a certain there is a certain way that your brain will attach to the external sensory stimuli. That will allow activate your parasympathetic nervous system to turn on and that allows you to just come into softness come into connection, and then also come into flow. And then flow is that state of being that many of us might chase it’s like that feeling of being completely connected to something being completely connected to yourself. And that in itself also is really it’s a pure state in your nervous system. That is where the repair work happens.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Yeah, like wow, that’s a great way of putting it. Yeah. It’s
Jade Chung
so powerful. And actually Nicole, I was wondering as you were speaking about your process, when you are creating art when you are, you know, making are on the floor and you’re using water. How do you tune into what needs to be said?
Nicolle Cure
If you like I am very, I do a lot of automatism. So I it’s very intuitive, I come into the studio with an idea, usually working on a collection. But a lot of a lot of my interests with waters, how it vibrates when I, you know, when I add inks or pigments, like obviously, the water vibrates on the canvas, just like some vibrates. And it’s interesting. It’s interesting to me to see how organic shapes start appearing, and how that kind of comes to memories that I’ve had of shapes and forms, but it creates a new one, it’s a little hard to explain, but it’s kind of led I let myself not be so strict with if I had an idea in mind, I feel like the material the moment will dictate what it is. And this happens. And I feel like it changes as my mood changes. And when I’m experiencing with symptoms, or no symptoms, because sometimes with our pieces not working, I leave it alone for weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. And then I recently picked up a painting that had been hanging in my studio forever. And then one day, I looked at the shapes differently. When I was looking at it, it’s kind of like a puzzle and everything came back to me and I had this urge to create. And it’s it’s everything like what I was experiencing, I’ve been sick with bronchitis, how my brain is trying to cope with everything now. And I finished the painting for the East ago. And I it’s one of my most favorite paintings and it used to hate it. So like everything that it’s this time, I think like art heals, like Time heals because you have to be the same way you have to give yourself time to to heal with artists the same I think like some things could be quick experiments and things that you can do to to be in the moment. But then with like a larger piece I let myself take time and the piece take time. So I’ve learned because I’m always usually in a rush I come from a background in advertising with everything is rush rush used to work for, you know, very hectic companies. And now it’s like I’m finally giving myself that time that I need. So it’s just like very meditative. So to answer your question, I feel like it’s very intuitive like I come in the studio I do have a sense of what I’m going to be doing. But I allow myself that space to to kind of let my feelings and my my my body or my mind what what’s going on dictate the movement of my shaping tool, or my brush and then shape that water or the color through what I’m feeling at the moment I don’t get anything now I never have a sketching my that’s not the way I process art has to be like in the moment when I’m giving myself and I give my all to the to the process in that moment.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
I’m the same way Nicole is like no strategizing strategizing does not allow for that free association. And like when I was mentioned at the top of the show, when I first was dealing with this dizziness and so isolated and all the emotions on top of the physical symptoms, I gravitated towards wool and I’d never sculpted in my life, but the the tattoo that like this muffled, warm, tactile feeling of it just was it was like the womb that I needed to have around me. And once I picked up a needle and I started and I was obsessed with hairless cats, and it felt like you know, I don’t have any hairless cats in my life. But for me it was like they were expressing that fragility because they’re so vulnerable you know, it’s just like these wrinkly skin and I felt vulnerable like that. And so it’s like I needed to just hold these eight hours a day non stop for two years all I did have your coke needles into bowl. And it became such a therapy for me. And I didn’t know until hindsight that different sculptures that I was creating that they were expressing mice different stages of the vestibular journey, you know, like the first one was all curled up in a little ball and the last one was like reaching out and it was it was so cool to feel that in hindsight my subconscious was was expressing
Nicolle Cure
and you can see the change right from beginning to end. Like why was back then? There was a lot of fear of the beginning and like why do you start feeling vulnerable and feeling like you lost? I feel like when you’re experiencing a new illness you really don’t know and then you feel guilty? What did I do wrong? Did I work too hard? Did I push myself like which is always the same thing you go to you like, it’s my fault, like what did I do? And then like how can I fix this? How can I feel better and then like it’s a circle that so I feel like if I didn’t have art or using a have art or any of us have any type. And when I say art, it’s like what you said, Cynthia, not is not painting or knitting or like it could be cooking, it could be going on a long walk and taking photos and documenting your work, I document my work, I see textures on the leaves on the floor. And I’m like, I want to bring that back to my studio. And if you’re not in the studio, you can bring that photo and it could be so it’s not like I know, JD will agree with me, like our therapy, everybody goes to painting their brain goes to art, but I don’t think, no, it’s so much more than that. It could be collaging it could be something that has to do with clay, like just getting yourself you know, it’s so many different activities to get your mind off of the pain, or that recurrent thought like OCD, like trying to focus on the problem. And I feel like art gets you out of that. And it’s it gets you to feel also, like useful. You’re creating a new story, you’re not staying in the old story. And I’m sick, I can’t, I don’t feel well. You know, it’s like a victim mentality. So it makes it gets me out of it’s like, no, this is I get to create something beautiful out of this, that happened to me. And that’s how I see it, I label it in a positive way. Yeah,
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
it’s like another part. Another part for me is letting go of the outcome. You know, when I do I, when I do a painting, it never turns out, like I think it’s gonna turn out, you know, and that’s in letting go of that and being okay with that. And I think that that translates into, into our, you know, recovery, our life as well, you know, the life as you were describing the call your life now is not what you necessarily expected it to be, you know, before your vestibular disorder, and, you know, that’s okay, you know, accepting where we are, and being okay with that, I think is part of the process. Jade, could you maybe take us through what an art therapy session looks like, you know, often and in particular, I just wanted to kind of put this out there often vestibular patients experience a lot of anxiety along with their symptoms of dizziness. And can you tell us how you’d work with a patient who comes to you with that kind of anxiety?
Jade Chung
Yeah, so with anxiety anxiety is the state that we go into when we essentially feel unsafe and our bodies we feel unsafe in some way. Our nervous system is dysregulated in some way and so we we try subconsciously to control our environment or control the future other way to help us feel safe and to feel okay in ourselves. And when it comes to anxiety, it really in general I would say is about coming back to the present it’s about pulling yourself out of the future and then also projecting you know, projecting fears and projecting past memories into the future and it’s about how can you come back into the present moment in your body and so working with you know, a patient a client who can comes with anxiety or come to dizziness vestibular disorder I would say a big piece of that really is going to be in the somatic and the somatic piece of it which is to first come back into a sense of grounding and yourself and then from that grounded state how can we feel into your body feel into what’s there feel into the color that’s there feel into the rhythm or the textures that might be basically like Nicole what you know your your process kind of is kind of calling that in right? How can you notice what is in your internal state? What’s their your internal experience and how can we regulate that and ground that even more How can you find how can we find your different ways different colors, different textures, different materials? I know Kimberly, for you that’s that’s wool. How can we find different ways to like anchor our bodies into the present?
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
We had like different boxes full of different materials or like and they would just be grabbing them or so
Jade Chung
in person ideally, yes, but often you know now a lot of things are online at work online a lot and so often it will look like I’ll have a session or two where we check in and just kind of see what the client needs. And then I might ask if it’s an online client, I’ll ask them to go pick up a range of small range of materials that they feel called to use. And that you know, I also feel like could be helpful. Usually that is going to need more like tactile sensorial things. So water is beautiful. Yeah, like wool cloth fabric. Also, to be honest, I really love working with nature. I, I asked my clients to sometimes I get a lot of resistance with this, but I asked them to go, I asked him to go out for a walk, go for a hike and like pick up some stones, pick up some twigs, pick up some, like, if you have like a Ziploc bag, can you like grab some soil? And like, in our next session, can we use that those pieces as ways to ground into obviously your body, but also these materials that we often forget are right here around us, but actually can tie us really into that can really tie us into like, what life is all about? And like what, like the energy that is actually all around us. Say I love working with nature.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
That reminds me of what you what what’s called forest bathing, you know, when you’re out. In nature, if you’re taking a hike, it’s really it. I mean, I do a lot of hiking. And it’s easy to think of it as we’re here to get to this place. We’re in a way it’s kind of like a march, almost. But when you bring yourself into the present, and you notice what’s around you, it totally changes the experience. And you you do you connect with not only visually but you know tack the shapes and textures of things. Like right now. Big into mushrooms.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
We have a lot of fun here.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Just for you know looking at in the forest. That’s what I mean.
Jade Chung
Mushrooms really are amazing. I watched this documentary a few months ago on Netflix that was about a guy. So yeah.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
So this is actually
Nicolle Cure
exciting. Right? Nature is the best artist. Thanks every color and every texture. As an artist, I think you just go back you go back to what you’ve seen and what you were sensing. I mean, I don’t live in a state where I can hike it’s flat, Florida, alligators. But when I’ve been to the mountains, I’ve been to Colorado and then I just the like all the trees are different, the different types of the trunks of the trees, like everything. And I just I spend like time taking 1000 pictures to bring back to the studio. But I feel like with so much connection now we’re online, we’re online, we’re on the phone, we’re documenting everything just I love my warts to like you guys say it because it allows you to explore and to, to meditate to to be with yourself instead of just, I don’t know, chained to a phone or to a computer, which happens a lot. So this Yeah, and
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
I like that you said earlier, Nicole, that it can be a creative going for a walk can be a creative act. And this is a this is a form of art, as long as our senses are open and receiving and interacting. This is actually speaking of the visual sense. This is podcast is on YouTube so that people can watch this. And if you have a painting Nicole, that you can share and I see one behind you that maybe you have another one in mind. But do you have one in particular that you can share with us but it’s expresses your vestibular struggles and maybe even the revelations that you had when you met that manifested itself during this painting process.
Nicolle Cure
Like my first one it’s called the eighth month because I lost my hearing in August 2017. And the painting has I kept that painting I didn’t sell it I have it in my living room and it’s it’s like a big mark on the middle in the middle of the painting. And I like I call it the incident. That’s where my ear went off like but it’s still bright and colorful and I never painted with black like now I’m coming back to black not from our perspective of sadness or green it’s like but I realized that even through my darkest times I was playing with a lot of color. My first collection is called the colors of sound and it’s always gonna be like, dear to my heart because that’s that’s what I that’s what came out of it and I Ever gravitated towards somber colors. And I feel like it’s interesting because that’s where I was the most depressed and crying every day and feeling very lonely and isolated. And then as I actually made peace with myself, I started experimenting with the brown and the black more like, I got this, it’s okay, it’s like I can I can paint in a more not somber but like more neutral palette, but it doesn’t come from a sadness or just negative perspective, it comes from me getting over it and and being able to play with all the colors. And I would say like my special painting is the first one that I did the one that I created right after, because it marks the the beginning of a new journey, the beginning of rediscovering and reinventing my myself on my art. And I love that painting feel like you know, I lost my I have a count the count collection, which is like the collection of currently working on it, it brought me back to now using pencil charcoal, other materials. So that’s how little by little, I mean, like incorporating molar marks and things like that, like coming back to myself in the past. But with all the experience and all the things that I’ve learned, just, I think my art is growing and morphing into something different mixing both techniques. So I am very happy where I am like, I feel like I’m in an discovery process right now I’m open to, to explore materials to not put myself in a box. Because a lot of artists put themselves in a box, I am an abstract artist, I am on a realistic art, I feel like we play with so many tools in the studio and things evolve that I could never be like just one thing. Like I feel like I am open to daring to explore and to fail and to start over and to paint over and create new things and discover new things. Yeah.
Jade Chung
I also feel like I also feel like your, your art, your work has been very much like a healing journey for you. Right? It’s been a part of your therapeutic journey. And so, of course, that’s going to like evolve, right? Because your work is so personal and you’re like through your work, you are asking yourself what you need. And your work is giving that back to you. It will evolve with you. And so now as you’re at a different level in your healing, you’re able to, like open up those doors back into the past back into memories and then be able to Yeah, to like explore in a more empowered way.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Yeah.
Nicolle Cure
I agree.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Without Yeah, you wouldn’t want it to be stagnant. Because if it’s mirroring your own inner process, and you’re just like, No, I have to stick with this specific technique, because this is who I am, then you’re in some way stunting your own internal evolution with exactly.
Nicolle Cure
And he’s so joyful to see how back then you’re like, oh, wow, I was back then. Here. That’s that was me back then. Like I felt like, I mean, I’m not gonna lie, I had a diary where I wrote down like, like, when is this going to end I feel like I can’t see anybody I can. I had hyperacusis like severe hyperacusis. At the beginning, I was literally isolated from the world, I would sit inside of the closet to avoid external sound with a towel wrapped around my head. Like, I could not call my mom I could not be on the phone. I could not listen to the sound of anybody talking to me. So like, the first year was horrible. Like I said, okay, my life change. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to go out to an exhibition or be in a public place with sound. And now as I am able to do all those things, I’m like, wow, have you know there is there is light at the end of the tunnel. Of course, the experience is not the same for everybody. And to be honest, when you’re out in social media, you get positive feedback and negative feedback. Sadly, some people are starting their journey and they get a little upset because you’re already cured. You know, quote, unquote, but you’re not you’re like you I’m still dealing with symptoms. But every person learns to navigate our or call it the new normal, right? But I feel for them because I’ve been there so I always take of kindness. I always feel like I know you’re mad. I know you’re in a bad place. You feel like probably I’m lucky because I live in a city or maybe you’re in a small town you don’t have the same access. That’s totally valid. But I know there’s light at the end of the time because we’ve all been there where we feel like okay, this is it like like this over how am I gonna work like these are functional ladies, but it’s rewarding to see how you could get, you know, stuck in them. unstuck and life keeps going in. And you’ll find ways you’ll find ways to through either through medication or therapy or, you know, but but there’s going to be ways for you evolving through the illness and through your life, you know, so it’s, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. If anybody’s listening, I know I’ve been there where I was like, in jail in my house, and now I’m not so Yeah, time, time helps.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Yeah, everybody is at a different place in their recovery. And it’s, you know, Jade, let me ask you this is there for, even though everybody’s in a different place in their recovery, is there a simple exercise that someone can try after this podcast, if they want to experience the therapeutic benefits of art, in their, you know, in their own home, just something simple, because I know that we’ve talked about using a lot of different a lot of different materials. And without having to go to Michael’s which is I find really fun, but it was something that somebody can, can do to tap into that creativity to help them process what they’re going through.
Jade Chung
Okay, many thoughts. Let me break it down. I think first of all, I do want to say that I feel like, needs to be said that everyone, I believe that everyone is creative. And, you know, I feel like we touched on this already a little bit. But creativity really is simply just anything is a state, it’s the state that you can be in and produce, when you are creating anything. So it’s just about creating. So you can create really anything and for that to be therapeutic, if you are mindfully attuned to it, and you are just in the process with it. And like like I think Nicole you mentioned like, it can be cooking, it can be I don’t know, it can be building a sandcastle it can be writing up an XML, if that, you know, that’s creation, too. If that’s therapeutic for you, then like, that is going to be the thing that grounds you. But beyond I guess, not beyond that, but in addition to that, something I always an exercise that I actually always, I guess start with is, like Cynthia, you also have have been asked to do this before, but really, it’s just grounding, coming back to yourself, coming back by breathing, usually, and just grounding your energy in and then tuning into your body and asking, what emotions are there? And really what, let’s say color, is there a shape? Is there a color? Is there, a texture that I feel like I am carrying in my emotion or carrying in my body that is just there, that needs to maybe surface and come out? And then if you can attune to that part of you. Right? Just asking it like, what does that part of you? What is that color? What does that texture? What does that maybe even object or like, it’s like a thing inside of you? How, how does it want to be expressed. And you can literally have a pen, a piece of paper. And you can just start like doodling that shape. Or you can you know, if you have a box of crayons near you, or you have a kid and you have like a box of crayons, you can just start playing with that color that came up right and just notice what comes up for you as you tune into what’s there. Like that is always sometimes that can sound a little abstract, but I feel like that is always that’s the simplest and most effective. Like our therapeutic practice, I feel like that everyone should learn.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
I think that really effective too for vestibular patients in particular because it’s simple and I think all of us that have gone through this or are going through this we have overstimulated nervous system. So we don’t want to get overwhelmed with too many choices. Too many materials too many it just I like the that idea of just one cram, you know, and one color and one texture and it seems like manageable for a nervous system that’s already going a little desert. And I’m guessing to just on a practical level. I’m gonna imagine some of our audience is listening to this and they’re going, Okay, what how are my symptoms going to change if I do this for 30 minutes? And I feel horrible at a 10am I going to be at a five when I’m done. And I don’t know that the answer to that. I mean, I think that’s individual for Everyone, but Nicole, do you see, you know, physical symptoms? Specifically, do you notice a shift in your symptoms after a painting session?
Nicolle Cure
Yes, but it could be both ways. So it could be. I mean, it relaxes me. But also, if that they are more focused on finishing the piece might be a little more stressful because I’m trying to get to the finish line. But for the most part, when I get into the studio is to, it’s at the end of the day, I used to I take I paint during the weekends and evenings after I like office hours and stuff, but I feel like when the night that I like the silence of the late evening hours, like people aren’t, you know, like, the noise of the city is not so much there. And I feel it’s a time where people are now calling texting. So it’s like, it’s great. It’s me and my work. And I know, for a few hours here, nobody’s calling me it’s like 10pm or 11. You know, it’s, and sometimes let me tell you, I when people say I don’t have time, I don’t have time, I’m that type of person. Sometimes I feel like I don’t have time to finish this and that. But the most wonderful last details or things or cool discoveries, I’ve done them in a quick session where I thought I was gonna, I was gonna do laundry, and I stopped by the studio because I have my students at home. And I was like, You know what, I think I have an idea. And then I get in there and say, Wow, this was an amazing session, I wasn’t thinking it was going to be such a great idea. And it’s because I think that’s where the least expectations I had. I wasn’t like, thinking I was gonna open the whole studio and have a long studio session. It was more like, yeah, let me add a few details here and there. And then it’s like, oh, my god, wow, I was not putting any stress into this process. And this beautiful thing, this beautiful shape came out. Because I was not stressing about it or just I was not I was being completely I don’t know, it was fluid. I was in the flow state and the true flow state. A question that I did have for JD is like, I feel serene and calm when I’m in in that state, right? But I tend to be a stressed person. After my story hours and I go back to reality How can you bring back that serenity and calm that you that you attained when you’re in that meditative flow into your normal life? Like you’re stuck in traffic, Miami has such a terrible thing number one after layer two in traffic, and you lose your calm you know, you’re not in a studio you’re not creating, is there any tips that you can share with us to retrieve that feeling of serenity there? But in your daily mundane life?
Jade Chung
Question. I think all of us, all of us experienced this, right? And the number one thing is to find ways that you can, everyone’s different find ways that you can bring yourself back to calm, even outside of even outside of like very safe containers because we live in kind of an unsafe world. And so, breath. Breath. Deep breaths is literally the number one thing that you know, you hear you hear people say this all the time, right? Like take deep breaths, whenever you’re stressed. Take deep breaths. But it’s very, very true, right? When you can like really breathe. It can completely soften your nervous system. But I would say that Hmm. Many, many things.
Nicolle Cure
I would say that aren’t to come back to accountant. But yeah,
Jade Chung
no, that’s the thing. It’s like we can’t bring our art everywhere. But what I find then is that there are different like self regulation, like techniques that I do breath, like I said, is one of them. But often, what I’ll do is I’ll you know, I also live in a city, it’s pretty loud here as well. And throughout the day, I will just make sure preemptively, before I’m even like triggered before I’m activated, I bring myself I take five minutes for myself here and there five times a day, maybe even. And I just take some breaths, I allow myself to come back down into myself. And then when you can do that more and more your nervous system capacity also stretches and it becomes stronger and stronger so that you are really just able to move through your day with more of that baseline grounded, does that make sense? It really is about consistency. And it’s about like finding practices that not necessarily like challenge you but finding practices that you can embody been outside of like the safety of home.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
I also had a therapist told me once it was a real practical tool. And she said, specifically when your amygdala which is, you know, your fear center in your brain, when it’s activated, it can’t function at the same time as the executive functioning, which is in your frontal lobe. And so she said, if you’re feeling panic, or you’re feeling stress or anxiety, start to focus on you know, a detail in your car, if you’re in the car, just look at the dashboard and start to describe it in your head. It’s gray, it’s bumpy, it’s a little dusty, whatever, and are focused on a cup that’s in front of you at your desk and notice the texture touch it. And as she said, just by doing those little things and listing them in your head, you’re engaging your executive functioning, and your amygdala can’t be shouting at you at the same time. So I loved that technique.
Nicolle Cure
Yes, yeah. That’s awesome. touching. Touching touch on thing, I think that helps. Yeah, yeah, touch, or I think cold water. Like if you’re in a flight or fight or flight that you need, like, cold water in your face or your hands, I think that’s what I’ve heard, because it shocks you out of that. You know, like, you’re in panic mode time, if and then then that calms you down.
Jade Chung
I think it can be, it can be very helpful. But what I will say is that it depends on the stress response that you’re in. Because the water can be very, very shocking. If you’re not used to doing that. And you just all of a sudden, you’re like, a bowl of I’ve done this before a bowl of cold water, you dunk it in second another stress, like I can, I can add to the stress if you’re not careful. So yeah, so it’s really about like what your personal nervous system and body needs to feel grounded, and it looks different for everyone. What I will add is that if you tend to be someone who gets really like, irritated or aggravated if you’re like someone who runs into fight or flight, which is you, let’s say like, a siren goes off, and you immediately just like you want to like yell and you want to like React and lash out, what you need to do is bring your energy back down, like bring your breath back down into yourself and like, allow your exhales to be really long. And then also find ways that you can anchor so like, like holding things. But if you are someone who tends to go into like a free state. So you find that when you’re triggered, or when you’re activated, or you feel imbalanced you almost like numb out or you dissociate or you kind of want to run, sometimes the best thing you can do is cold exposure could help because it activates you up. Or you can just shake, you know, just like engage your body a little bit if that is available for for you. That doesn’t have to be a full body shake, right? But just ways that you can like stretch or like, yeah, just like activate that energy.
Nicolle Cure
Great happens with me with sound. I’m very triggered by like, if people are I’m in a coffee shop and people are having normal conversations. To me they sound like, like they’re right next to me. Like they’re like that, like I have eight people surrounding me and talking to me. And it’s no longer painful, but it’s annoyance to sound I have I think I have a little bit of misophonia. Because I feel like if people are having, I mean, obviously not allowed, but like normal level. But there are many conversations at this, I just can’t handle it. I have to go to the restroom and just relax. Or I’m already bothered, and I don’t want to be in that place. So I feel like I can handle it. And I feel like I’m being like, rude. Sometimes in a setting where there’s like a dinner and I have to leave. I’m like I just can’t handle these stimuli. Like I have to go. And yeah, it’s part of the vestibular I think it’s like over taxed and I need a break. But yeah, some people don’t understand some people feel like you’re being rude because you’re not tolerant to other people having a conversation but and you don’t have an opportunity to explain to people sometimes you’re in a setting like you know, work event and you have to be there and and you’re like, Oh my God, so many conversations. So you have to excuse yourself and find that grounding what David was saying, like find finding those five minutes to
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
another reason why art can be so therapeutic because it’s often solo. I don’t have I mean, unless you’re at like some sort of kids play center or something. It’s quiet and it’s, you know, subdued and it’s solo. So all of those things are nurturing Exactly.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
How can someone find an art therapist? I mean, or is there? You know, is that like, is it? Is it a common thing? Yeah, how does someone I know, at vita, when, when we’re recommending we were definitely recommending to people if you’re struggling? See if a mental health therapist, talk therapy can be really useful for many things, and it doesn’t mean that you’re crazy. And we generally recommend, you know, go to Psychology Today they have a great directory look for there are people who are focused on chronic illnesses, and or anxiety or pain, those people are often you know, people with experience with somatic therapy, but art therapy specifically, is there. Is that a specialty? And is there a way to find someone who can help you with that? It
Jade Chung
definitely is a specialty, it definitely is still a little bit niche. So there isn’t, you can find art therapists on Psychology Today, if you type in art therapy, or our therapist. But I would say if you want to work with someone in person, and you want to have that like in person experience with an art therapist, where you have options where you have, like, you know, 10 million crayons and pains that you could, you know, play with when you go into a studio. And I would say best bet is to check with your local regional association of art therapists, usually they’re all of the professional art therapists in that region will be listed. So if you’re in BC, you could check the BC One if you’re in. If there’s a big one in America, it’s the American Association of our therapists, you can check that out as well. But I would also say that online, I feel like most a lot of therapists now are working, at least privately, are working online. So if you’re open to working virtually, there are a lot of our therapists who are on social media. And you can find them and connect with them and see if you vibe with them as well. When we work with a therapist, we want to make sure obviously, that we resonate with them and that they you know, that that we feel like they can get us they can get our experience. Maybe you want to find someone who is of the same nationality, as you or, you know, has gone through a similar journey as you and so I do think that actually finding your therapist through social media, but of course, making sure you vet, your vet who you’re working with, can be a nice way for you to be able to, like connect with a therapist before you book in. Right? Yeah,
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
absolutely. I totally second that. You definitely and if the first person that you that you try, you’re not connecting with it’s okay to you know, try someone else shop around. Definitely makes it makes it.
Nicolle Cure
Yeah, you’re buying or not buying like that’s yeah, immediate. You know, somebody you’re like, Okay, we don’t quick, or Yeah, I
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
mean, we’re, it’s a vulnerable, you want to feel safe. It’s like, again, going back to the simular patients, we already don’t feel safe. So the safety is huge. And you know, I think you know, as soon as you kind of connect with somebody if you feel safe with them or not. And
Nicolle Cure
then you don’t feel judged. Big word, right? Because a lot of times, you don’t know maybe you’re triggered by certain way. So how they ask you how you’re coping with your illness? Or why are you doing this or not doing like, I feel like you have to feel like what you say in a safe space that you’re not judged by your what you’re doing in your patterns, your day to day, because you also make a mistake, you’re we’re human. So even sometimes, you know, I know I have to rest and I’m not resting in the students. I know like sometimes I’m doing something I shouldn’t be and but it’s good to talk about it with somebody who’s not judgmental, that’s just gonna understand and listen to you and try to shift to another direction but not providing that blame, like Oh, well. That’s There you go. You’re doing that. So yeah, it’s important to buy.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Especially with art. There’s no right or wrong. Yeah,
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
this was such a fun conversation. You guys I just it’s like I want to go pick up the scissors and just cut pieces of paper and make shapes or something. Maybe it’s not I don’t know back in. When I was kindergarten. We were making snowflakes this time of year so maybe that’s
Jade Chung
do it. You got to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Ah,
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
it’s a it’s a rainy weekend here in the Pacific Northwest. And I think that’s going to give me an excuse to to do a little painting. So thanks for the inspiration everyone.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
Yeah guys,
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
thank you for sharing your experience, Nicole, and thank you for sharing your expertise Jane. This has been wonderful for so
Jade Chung
wonderful. Happy to hear so much. Thank you.
Cynthia Ryan – VeDA
Thanks for tuning in to ICU this month.
Kimberly Warner – Unfixed Media
We hope this conversation sparked a new understanding of the vestibular journey. And for all of our patients out there, leaves you feeling just a little more heard. And a little more seen. I see