@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
Thanks for explaining this. It definitely does make some sense. I just can’t get over a few things (that no one probably has answers to).
1. Is there a way to test this other than through the antibodies?
2. What is the treatment?
3. Why are people still having symptoms after the antibodies are supposedly gone (after 6 months, even after 11 months)?
4. Why do doctors we have all talked to not believe this is happening?
5. And what specialist do we need to see who are knowledgeable in this? Immunologist?
Just some thoughts.
@sickofthis my antibodies are at 500 and it’s been 5.5 months. It’ll be six more months before I’m under the threshold for being positive. So twelve months total. How long those antibodies last probably varies in each person. It’s also a function of when you got your second and third shots. So it depends on a lot. This is a new theory so probably not many immunologists would know what to do with it. But the long term solution, if waiting doesn’t help, would probably be some type of plasmapheresis to remove the Ab2 antibodies. Or to add something to the blood to bind with them. Right now I don’t think there are many treatments that aren’t theoretical.
@sickofthis there is a company in Germany that tests for ACE2 antibodies. But until there is a treatment I don’t personally see the point in wasting $450 on the test since even if it’s positive, there’s not much I can do yet.
I guess I talked a little bit about my supposed recovery here a few days ago. I knew that a relapse was more or less inevitable as it had only been 4 months for me. And lo and behold, I've been going through a pretty bad relapse for the last week or so. Been getting sharp, stabbing pains in my fingers, legs and arms, sometimes my waist and the back as well. Sometimes my fingers feel like they are throbbing.
I'm not losing hope like earlier though, it is painful and frustrating but I'll hang in there.
@scpeters88 Thanks for sharing. I had similar symptoms after 1st in April and considering 2nd shot. Curious if you still feel ok after booster?
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
Scary!🥺
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
So this all makes sense and is the theory I’most prone to believe. The next question is if and when we get actual covid will this happen again?
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
How do you think this differs from those that did not get an mRNA shot?
Ughh how frustrating!! I felt 90% back to normal couple of weeks ago (~6m mark) and even had a feeling of tinnitus getting quieter and now, a huuuge relapse with new symptoms (testicular pain and heart tingling or something) as well as "good" old ones are back (derealization, dizziness, fatigue, insomnia) - like it's July all over again.
It's VERY unencouraging 🙁
That's terrible, sorry to hear ! I haven't seen any other posts where they relapse this hard at 6 months, very discouraging indeed.... do you think anything triggered it? Also is the relapse slightly less severe than before or is it the same severity as in July ?
It has been odd. I was well (overall ~80%, excluded tinnitus) for 1.5 months, then relapsed for 2 weeks, then fine (~90%) for 2 weeks, then slightly relapsed again for 1 week and then fine again for 1 week and now 2 weeks of though time, feels like back to 40% (considering that the worst = 0% in early July).
I don't know what is the trigger, it seems more or less random... living the same way and then suddenly it's starting to go south.
Also, I was looking at the spike protein antibody levels in vaccinated as well as covid patients and seems like this has a pretty good correlation with the severity of my overall symptoms (plot below). It takes about a week when the production of antibodies is ramping up and then peaking around 7-10 days after the first jab. My first symptoms (vertigo and insomnia) started also a week after the first jab. This would also fit with the anti-idiotype immune response hypothesis. In that case, a booster would be a BIG no-no. But there could be also something else going on... The plots are here (curves are smoothened): https://postimg.cc/sQ5nfjv9
Since our symptoms are exactly the same as Covid long haulers, may be the reason could be the same as well. I'd read an article which said doctors still haven't got any clue why long haulers have such symptoms and what causes it. They're still scratching their head.
What it said was -
- Either a tiny part of the virus is still active in their bodies. (So tiny that it won't get detected on a Covid test. The test will always show negative)
- OR their immune system is still reacting to the virus even when the virus is no longer there
But they're unsure. These are only speculations.
So my guess is, since this substance mimics the virus, our immune system is acting against this substance so the symptoms. But I wonder for how long will this continue? If after Covid, these patients are having symptoms for say 1 year to almost 1.5 years and longer even when the reports show Covid negative, for how long will our bodies react to this stupid vaxx?🤔
If the antibodies are close to Nil in say a year's time and some still have symptoms, would that mean our immune is still reacting even when the vaccine is no longer there in our bodies anymore?
They say vaccine's power reduces with time and 8-9 months is the max protection it can provide, then how is it that there are people suffering for 11 months plus...
Just speculating for those who are double vaxxed,: maybe people are suffering longer based on how spaced out their 1st and 2nd doses were. For me , there was about a 4 month gap between them so I about 6 months out from my 1st shot and I feel worse... however , this wouldnt explain why some who got only 1 shot are having prolonged symptoms..
Also, if the half life theory that I believe a gentlemen mentioned here is true than that would mean our symptoms would lessen in severity as the antibody counts reduce. But clearly that hasn't been the case for some people here.
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
Thanks for explaining this. It definitely does make some sense. I just can’t get over a few things (that no one probably has answers to).
1. Is there a way to test this other than through the antibodies?2. What is the treatment?
3. Why are people still having symptoms after the antibodies are supposedly gone (after 6 months, even after 11 months)?
4. Why do doctors we have all talked to not believe this is happening?
5. And what specialist do we need to see who are knowledgeable in this? Immunologist?
Just some thoughts.
Right now, we don't have any answers.
Why the medical field won't talk about it is simple. They want this to be hidden since their propaganda of safe vaccines is going on. Accepting this is caused by vaccines, means inviting trouble, hesitancy in the minds of people and accepting that they pushed a vaccine about which they haven't got complete knowledge.
It's a simple logic which all corporate companies use too. They work on data. If an App based company has say 500 consumers and only 2-5 of them are not able to access the App, they won't care about them but if the same number is 100 that's when they will take it seriously and fix the tech issue.
The governments all across and the medical field is doing the same thing. They care a fuck about those 5-10% people having issues post the jab. They call it coincidental or not from the vaxx and close the case. We're on our own.
But I am very certain this small number will very soon be majority. I have seen many people having a delayed reaction. I somewhat believe everyone will have some sort of reaction sooner or later. The majority will but by then it'll be too late.
People are getting jabbed for the 4th and 5th time, do you think the bodies won't react to it?
Moreover they're also planning for a annual jab even if Covid becomes endemic which I don't think will happen so soon.
Someone who hasn't got Covid at all, got injured by the vaxx. Smh! What on Earth is happening!
I just hope we return to normalcy soon. How it'll happen, no clue!
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
So this all makes sense and is the theory I’most prone to believe. The next question is if and when we get actual covid will this happen again?
That might explain the relapses or worsening of symptoms that people on this forum are experiencing after getting covid. But there are also people who said they did not experience a worsening of symptoms. So there are inconsistencies..
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
So this all makes sense and is the theory I’most prone to believe. The next question is if and when we get actual covid will this happen again?
This only happens in long covid patients as much as I've read. Please don't think of all of this and worry yourself.
Our only aim rn is to get cured somehow anyhow by the havoc caused by the substance.
Who will contract Covid and who will survive post jab issues and the long term effects of both, nobody is aware of.