@jaydev55 No, I don't think it differs. This would happen anytime there is an antibody against the spike protein, which I think would happen in all the vaccines made so far. But mRNA, especially Moderna, produces a *lot* of antibodies. This is probably why Moderna causes the most issues in young men (myocarditis etc), since it is a big dose and causes a big response, which *may* cause a large amount of Ab2 antibodies in certain people (and those are the ones that likely cause inflammation).
@medee the latest theories about long covid, and probably what some of us are dealing with, is an autoimmune reaction against the ACE2 receptor in our bodies.
It’s complicated, but let’s say you get the vaccine, mRNA. You now have a fragment that tells your body to make the spike protein. Once your body makes the spike protein, the immune system generates antibodies against it. Let’s call those Ab1 antibodies. Imagine a spike, the antibodies connect to it like a lock and key. So if the spike protein is the key, the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock that fits that particularly shaped key.
If the process ended there, it would be good. But a concern for developing the SARS vaccine years ago is that it may lead to autoimmune problems (where the immune system attacks the body), and that seems to be what is happening in some people with this vaccine
So after the vaccine, or COVID, a person now has a ton of Ab1 antibodies. For whatever reason, in some people, those Ab1 antibodies are targeted by the immune system in a secondary reaction. So the immune system creates another antibody to attack these antibodies. These new antibodies are called Ab2 antibodies. Now, remember the Ab1 antibodies look like a lock? Well, the Ab2 antibodies need to look like a key to fit into that lock in order to render the Ab1 antibody ineffective. The problem is the key that the Ab2 antibodies look like is in fact the same shape as the original spike protein, since that was the shape the Ab1 antibodies needed to take. So you now have these Ab2 antibodies floating around that have many of the same properties of the spike protein. In particular, they target the ACE2 receptor all over the body. ACE2 is generally anti-inflammatory, so if you remove it, you get inflammation where it’s removed. So these Ab2 antibodies are floating around and causing inflammation everywhere.
my hope, and why I am measuring my antibodies (which are basically the Ab1 antibodies), is that when they die out, there will be no reason for the Ab2 antibodies to exist. So I suspect (and hope) my problems disappear as those antibodies go away.
This mechanism seems to be legit - in very severe cases of COVID they have measured ACE2 antibodie, which shouldn’t exist and are very problematic as the ACE2 receptor is everywhere.
And because the antibodies generated from COVID vaccines are much greater than from the virus. So it’s actually possible, if this is all true, to get a worse from of long COVID from the vaccine than the virus itself.
How do you think this differs from those that did not get an mRNA shot?
I don't think it'll differ. I didn't take the mRna shot. Mine was AZ. There is no difference between mine and other people's symptoms.
@medee No, it happens in the vaccine too.
Here is an article that talks about it - https://health.ucdavis.edu/newsroom/news/headlines/antibodies-mimicking-the-virus-may-explain-long-haul-covid-19-rare-vaccine-side-effects/2021/11
And the original study that it references that says it can happen in both - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcibr2113694
Ughh how frustrating!! I felt 90% back to normal couple of weeks ago (~6m mark) and even had a feeling of tinnitus getting quieter and now, a huuuge relapse with new symptoms (testicular pain and heart tingling or something) as well as "good" old ones are back (derealization, dizziness, fatigue, insomnia) - like it's July all over again.
It's VERY unencouraging 🙁
That's terrible, sorry to hear ! I haven't seen any other posts where they relapse this hard at 6 months, very discouraging indeed.... do you think anything triggered it? Also is the relapse slightly less severe than before or is it the same severity as in July ?
It has been odd. I was well (overall ~80%, excluded tinnitus) for 1.5 months, then relapsed for 2 weeks, then fine (~90%) for 2 weeks, then slightly relapsed again for 1 week and then fine again for 1 week and now 2 weeks of though time, feels like back to 40% (considering that the worst = 0% in early July).
I don't know what is the trigger, it seems more or less random... living the same way and then suddenly it's starting to go south.
Also, I was looking at the spike protein antibody levels in vaccinated as well as covid patients and seems like this has a pretty good correlation with the severity of my overall symptoms (plot below). It takes about a week when the production of antibodies is ramping up and then peaking around 7-10 days after the first jab. My first symptoms (vertigo and insomnia) started also a week after the first jab. This would also fit with the anti-idiotype immune response hypothesis. In that case, a booster would be a BIG no-no. But there could be also something else going on... The plots are here (curves are smoothened): https://postimg.cc/sQ5nfjv9
Since our symptoms are exactly the same as Covid long haulers, may be the reason could be the same as well. I'd read an article which said doctors still haven't got any clue why long haulers have such symptoms and what causes it. They're still scratching their head.
What it said was -
- Either a tiny part of the virus is still active in their bodies. (So tiny that it won't get detected on a Covid test. The test will always show negative)
- OR their immune system is still reacting to the virus even when the virus is no longer there
But they're unsure. These are only speculations.
So my guess is, since this substance mimics the virus, our immune system is acting against this substance so the symptoms. But I wonder for how long will this continue? If after Covid, these patients are having symptoms for say 1 year to almost 1.5 years and longer even when the reports show Covid negative, for how long will our bodies react to this stupid vaxx?🤔
If the antibodies are close to Nil in say a year's time and some still have symptoms, would that mean our immune is still reacting even when the vaccine is no longer there in our bodies anymore?
They say vaccine's power reduces with time and 8-9 months is the max protection it can provide, then how is it that there are people suffering for 11 months plus...
Just speculating for those who are double vaxxed,: maybe people are suffering longer based on how spaced out their 1st and 2nd doses were. For me , there was about a 4 month gap between them so I about 6 months out from my 1st shot and I feel worse... however , this wouldnt explain why some who got only 1 shot are having prolonged symptoms..
Also, if the half life theory that I believe a gentlemen mentioned here is true than that would mean our symptoms would lessen in severity as the antibody counts reduce. But clearly that hasn't been the case for some people here.
Exactly my question too! This is strange how some are suffering for so long.
I had a chat with someone today who took the jab in Jan 2020 but hasn't completely cured yet. She says she's 90% better
@yjjy Yes it's true. And some people feel better when they get another shot (or in the case of long covid, some people report the symptoms get better). That would likely be because the shot produces more antibodies, Ab1 in my example, and those bind with the Ab2 antibodies causing all the issues, the net result is less Ab2 antibodies floating around, so symptom improvement. If this theory holds up, then it may be the ratio of the Ab1 to Ab2 that determines if someone gets worse or better following another injection, or covid itself.
@medee No, it happens in the vaccine too.
Here is an article that talks about it - https://health.ucdavis.edu/newsroom/news/headlines/antibodies-mimicking-the-virus-may-explain-long-haul-covid-19-rare-vaccine-side-effects/2021/11
And the original study that it references that says it can happen in both - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcibr2113694
Not sure which comment of mine you're referring to but I do get that the vaxx is mimicking the virus and our bodies is reacting to it.
The only thing concerns us all is when this will end and we don't have an answer. The one you mentioned about antibodies does make a lot of sense but still wondering why some haven't felt better even after completing almost a year post vaccination.
So there is no concrete answer to anything. Some have cured too early, some haven't even after months.
I saw somone out here got cured in just 17 days. Glad that they did but what worked, no idea!
Ughh how frustrating!! I felt 90% back to normal couple of weeks ago (~6m mark) and even had a feeling of tinnitus getting quieter and now, a huuuge relapse with new symptoms (testicular pain and heart tingling or something) as well as "good" old ones are back (derealization, dizziness, fatigue, insomnia) - like it's July all over again.
It's VERY unencouraging 🙁
That's terrible, sorry to hear ! I haven't seen any other posts where they relapse this hard at 6 months, very discouraging indeed.... do you think anything triggered it? Also is the relapse slightly less severe than before or is it the same severity as in July ?
It has been odd. I was well (overall ~80%, excluded tinnitus) for 1.5 months, then relapsed for 2 weeks, then fine (~90%) for 2 weeks, then slightly relapsed again for 1 week and then fine again for 1 week and now 2 weeks of though time, feels like back to 40% (considering that the worst = 0% in early July).
I don't know what is the trigger, it seems more or less random... living the same way and then suddenly it's starting to go south.
Also, I was looking at the spike protein antibody levels in vaccinated as well as covid patients and seems like this has a pretty good correlation with the severity of my overall symptoms (plot below). It takes about a week when the production of antibodies is ramping up and then peaking around 7-10 days after the first jab. My first symptoms (vertigo and insomnia) started also a week after the first jab. This would also fit with the anti-idiotype immune response hypothesis. In that case, a booster would be a BIG no-no. But there could be also something else going on... The plots are here (curves are smoothened): https://postimg.cc/sQ5nfjv9
Since our symptoms are exactly the same as Covid long haulers, may be the reason could be the same as well. I'd read an article which said doctors still haven't got any clue why long haulers have such symptoms and what causes it. They're still scratching their head.
What it said was -
- Either a tiny part of the virus is still active in their bodies. (So tiny that it won't get detected on a Covid test. The test will always show negative)
- OR their immune system is still reacting to the virus even when the virus is no longer there
But they're unsure. These are only speculations.
So my guess is, since this substance mimics the virus, our immune system is acting against this substance so the symptoms. But I wonder for how long will this continue? If after Covid, these patients are having symptoms for say 1 year to almost 1.5 years and longer even when the reports show Covid negative, for how long will our bodies react to this stupid vaxx?🤔
If the antibodies are close to Nil in say a year's time and some still have symptoms, would that mean our immune is still reacting even when the vaccine is no longer there in our bodies anymore?
They say vaccine's power reduces with time and 8-9 months is the max protection it can provide, then how is it that there are people suffering for 11 months plus...
Just speculating for those who are double vaxxed,: maybe people are suffering longer based on how spaced out their 1st and 2nd doses were. For me , there was about a 4 month gap between them so I about 6 months out from my 1st shot and I feel worse... however , this wouldnt explain why some who got only 1 shot are having prolonged symptoms..
Also, if the half life theory that I believe a gentlemen mentioned here is true than that would mean our symptoms would lessen in severity as the antibody counts reduce. But clearly that hasn't been the case for some people here.
It's really hard to say as we don't know what amount of antibodies would cause symptoms. Like a pinprick of ricin can kill a person, so you don't need huge amounts. It may be that even a very very very small amount of the Ab2 antibodies is enough to cause bad symptoms, in which case a person wouldn't see any improvement until it's basically gone. But it's just a theory for now, and I have no idea if it's true.
It could be the timing for sure. I actually had a johnson and johnson vaccine and then, stupidly, decided to get a moderna vaccine only one month later. So it's possible I had a massive reaction to the second one due to the timing.
@yjjy Yes it's true. And some people feel better when they get another shot (or in the case of long covid, some people report the symptoms get better). That would likely be because the shot produces more antibodies, Ab1 in my example, and those bind with the Ab2 antibodies causing all the issues, the net result is less Ab2 antibodies floating around, so symptom improvement. If this theory holds up, then it may be the ratio of the Ab1 to Ab2 that determines if someone gets worse or better following another injection, or covid itself.
That's an interesting theory... Me personally I think it's possible that some of us had some sort of auto immune problem before the Vax. For me I had irritable bowel syndrome, which I understand is very common, and so perhaps my immune system was already weakened or overactive to begin with. Alot of people here say they were "healthy" before the vaccine , including myself, but surely we have some sort of underlying issues that affected the immune response for the vaccine...
Whenever I caught the cold or flu prior to thee vaccine, I recall having a really hard time symptom wise and the cold symptoms in particular would linger for more than the average person...
@bander56 hi! So I am officially two weeks out. I am feeling pretty good overall. I do have a bad head cold, so I feel like my head feels a little fuzzy.
overall I did have some slight dizziness, but that honestly seems to have resolved. I didn’t have a reaction after the first shot though, only after the second. I do believe as well as much doctors that my body does react with an inflammatory response from the vaccine, due to my other health issues (autoimmune) so the double shot of the first round really was way to much for my system to handle. That said, if you had a bad reaction from the first shot, I wonder if you could get a half dose of the booster? Maybe something to ask…the first one may have just been too potent for your system.
@jaydev55 No, I don't think it differs. This would happen anytime there is an antibody against the spike protein, which I think would happen in all the vaccines made so far. But mRNA, especially Moderna, produces a *lot* of antibodies. This is probably why Moderna causes the most issues in young men (myocarditis etc), since it is a big dose and causes a big response, which *may* cause a large amount of Ab2 antibodies in certain people (and those are the ones that likely cause inflammation).
Did you have Moderna? My cervical lymph nodes were swollen for the months. They just went down and I had one dose Pfizer. I only have ear fullness sometimes in my left ear now. Do you find taking ibuprofen helps your symptoms ever? I saw dr been talking about this ab1 ab2 theory and he said if they targeted a different part of the antigen this series of events wouldn’t have happened. It all has to do with how your ab1 forms. He said if your ab1 makes them to fit the spike like you had been saying then that’s how the whole situation starts. So maybe some people don’t react like we do because their ab1 s attached to a different part of the spike so the down regulation antibodies don’t fit like a lock and key. He said it is basically like a lottery. If this theory is true then it seems it is by chance this happened to us and not because of some common factor? Maybe I didn’t understand his explanation correctly but that is how I understood. If you have more thoughts please let us know.
@yjjy Yes it's true. And some people feel better when they get another shot (or in the case of long covid, some people report the symptoms get better). That would likely be because the shot produces more antibodies, Ab1 in my example, and those bind with the Ab2 antibodies causing all the issues, the net result is less Ab2 antibodies floating around, so symptom improvement. If this theory holds up, then it may be the ratio of the Ab1 to Ab2 that determines if someone gets worse or better following another injection, or covid itself.
That's an interesting theory... Me personally I think it's possible that some of us had some sort of auto immune problem before the Vax. For me I had irritable bowel syndrome, which I understand is very common, and so perhaps my immune system was already weakened or overactive to begin with. Alot of people here say they were "healthy" before the vaccine , including myself, but surely we have some sort of underlying issues that affected the immune response for the vaccine...
Whenever I caught the cold or flu prior to thee vaccine, I recall having a really hard time symptom wise and the cold symptoms in particular would linger for more than the average person...
Same here
@jkro Yah I'm not sure unfortunately. I did see his video, and I thought it was great - he explains it well. I do agree though, they used the part of the spike protein targeting ACE2, which is sort of what causes this. They probably thought that would make it work for other coronaviruses as well, but a side effect is that it has caused ACE2 to be targeted in some people.
@yjjy Yes it's true. And some people feel better when they get another shot (or in the case of long covid, some people report the symptoms get better). That would likely be because the shot produces more antibodies, Ab1 in my example, and those bind with the Ab2 antibodies causing all the issues, the net result is less Ab2 antibodies floating around, so symptom improvement. If this theory holds up, then it may be the ratio of the Ab1 to Ab2 that determines if someone gets worse or better following another injection, or covid itself.
That's an interesting theory... Me personally I think it's possible that some of us had some sort of auto immune problem before the Vax. For me I had irritable bowel syndrome, which I understand is very common, and so perhaps my immune system was already weakened or overactive to begin with. Alot of people here say they were "healthy" before the vaccine , including myself, but surely we have some sort of underlying issues that affected the immune response for the vaccine...
Whenever I caught the cold or flu prior to thee vaccine, I recall having a really hard time symptom wise and the cold symptoms in particular would linger for more than the average person...
Might be right, but like you mention, I was perfectly “healthy” before all of this. I never really caught colds or the flu often and when I did they were extremely short and mild. My immune system seemed to be firing great before this.
@tennyson77 Still feeing like your “normal” self today after taking the steroids? I’m very interested in your progression because of the steroids and the timing of when you took them (5.5 months out).